Kristy: [00:00:00] Hello, boss and welcome back to the Run Your Business Like a Boss podcast. Full disclaimer for today's conversation, you will want to have your notes app handy or a pen and paper because this one is loaded with so much actionable tips and advice. Today I'm joined by special guest Emma McMillan, who is a copy coach.

She believes that every business deserves great copy. Working with a copywriter is definitely one way, but another way is to equip yourself with the skills, confidence, and accountability to write on your own. Now we're looking at that through this lens of you are the messy middle and you can't do it all, but what can you do really well, but in a sustainable way?

This conversation, as I said, is loaded with so many tips and advice in order to up-level your copy, with ease and simplicity. So, are you ready? Let's go.

Hello Emma! Welcome to the Run Your Business Like a Boss podcast. I am so excited for today's conversation.

Emma: Thank you Kristy I'm so excited to be here. Thanks for having me.

Kristy: Amazing. You're so welcome. Okay, so today we are talking about up leveling your copywriting as a business owner. And copywriting is probably one of the most important skills, for any business owner to have. And whilst there will be pieces that we all outsource, there will also be bits of your copywriting that you need to [00:02:00] keep in your skillset.

C, which is what we're talking about in today's conversation. So, I'm excited to get your insight into the things that we should be up-leveling as well as the things that maybe we might be making mistakes on, and all the things.

Emma: Fantastic.

Kristy: So, with all of that said, Emma, what would you say is the most important aspects of copywriting that business owners should master when it comes to DIYing?

Emma: Yeah, that's a great question, and just to echo what you said- there is so much writing that goes into running a small business. I think even when I started my business, I was completely overwhelmed at all the different copy requirements and assets that you might need. You know, from website to emails to social media to bios, all that sort of stuff.

It just keeps coming and so it is really important to be able to strike a balance between wanting to hang on to some of that and upskill, and then knowing when to outsource as well. So interestingly, I think the best place for anyone to start when it comes to understanding copywriting better is.

All that foundational work. particularly when it comes to understanding, you know, who your customers or clients are, what the problems that they have are and how you solve them and what it is that you actually do differently. Like that's the place where I think, if you can own those sorts of statements and those sorts of words around how you serve then you'll be able to get behind that.

I think one of the challenges when it comes to outsourcing things like bios and about pages, for example, is that no copywriter, no matter how good we are, we can't climb into your head, and we can't actually extract exactly things as you would say them. So, when it's the stuff that is so personal, that's where I think it's really important to get a handle on that.

And there are some really good ways that small business owners can actually start to get some of that language, and I always tell my clients is to start your conversations with your clients and customers. You know, actually start to understand from them why did they seek you out?

What is it about you that helped them to get drawn into your sphere. what is it about [00:04:00] your process that might be different to the ways that other people do things? What is actually keeping them up at 3:00 AM and what are they really looking to solve?

And what are some of the ways that you as a provider were able to help with that? And just by having those kinds of conversations, which can feel daunting, you know, so you can do it. In person, or you can do it over Zoom or even just via a survey or a form. Just to start asking customers or clients what are some of the things about you that you should know? Because that objectivity can be a great place to start

Kristy: It's so interesting as you are talking, it reminded me a lot of a conversation that I had last year with Darby Linden around brand strategy, and the business strategy, the brand strategy, your copywriting, it's all so interlinked, and if you don't understand that foundational piece it's difficult to get that message out there. So, I definitely resonate with that. In your opinion, what of all of the copy assets should business owners hang on to?

Emma: Yeah, I think even just a first go of the bio, a first go of your about page and even just, a simple go at your website to start with. Even if you do end up getting a copywriter into assist you to finesse it, just to actually start to do the thinking around it, is actually such a valuable piece.

And I've spoken with Darby as well. She's been on my podcast and talked a lot about branding on there. And I think what can happen is that if you kind of go hands off in the beginning, you can get to a point in the business where you start to feel like, ah, that doesn't really sound like me. And it's kind of gotten so far that you don't know how to kind of undo it and redo it, without making a big mess. So even if it feels messy, just having a go at that sort of stuff. And I think emails as well when you're talking to your subscriber list. I mean, for starters, they have put their names down and said they wanna be hearing from you, and I think that's a really beautiful way for you to connect with people on a more personal level as well.

So, I think, that bio piece, that about page, those emails, I think that's where you're building those relationships with people and that's where you can really hear [00:06:00] when a business owner's authentic voice is coming through.

Kristy: Yeah, I love that. So, what I'm hearing is the first piece obviously is to deeply understand, what your business stands for, who you are serving, what problems you're solving.

Really understanding the language of your ideal client, and I think that that's one of the mistakes that many people make is they're so far in their own language and their own insider talk that they're not necessarily translating that for the ideal client. Which is where really having those conversations with your ideal clients and getting an understanding from their perspective is so powerful.

As a business owner, it's so important to do that writing, at some point, you don't always have to retain that, but even if you've got that base level of copy out there so that a copywriter can then translate that, or perhaps maybe elevate that. It's going to put you in a better position rather than trying to outsource that from the get-go.

Emma: Absolutely. Yeah, you've hit the nail on the head Kirsty, and when it comes to things like values, like talking about your brand values and why things are important to you, I mean, of course somebody could do that on your behalf and you can brief someone in, but why not just have a go at it first and just see, if it comes from the heart and it comes from you, I think that's really gonna connect with your prospects in a way that maybe, it might not otherwise.

Kristy: Yeah, very, very true. I'm curious to know what mistakes do you see from business owners who are DIYing their own copy?

Emma: A lot of the time Kristy, people will actually start with a lot of, business centered language rather than customer focused language. So " I'll do this for you, or I'll support you with this whatever" rather than flipping it to that language of the customer first.

So, “you’ll learn about this or you'll get this, insight or you'll walk away with this," and I think when the client or customer can see themselves reflected in the copy, I think that's, so helpful for a point of connection. So that customer focused language is a really easy, noticeable switch that people can make.

Another thing when it comes to copy, especially on things like websites, is that people just love writing big slabs of copy, and sometimes we just [00:08:00] wanna get all the words out and I understand that. But what we need to do, especially as people read on screens, is to actually really organize that copy for a reader.

So, you know, things like headings, and subheads, and bullet points, and also creating a lot of white space on the page is so important for how people are actually going to consume that content. You know, we don't read online like we read novels, so it's really important that people can skim and scan and find what they need.

So that organization piece is a really important piece of any kind of copy. So, there's that customer focused language. There's that big chunks of copy. A lot of the time, what's also missing is calls to action. People forget to tell their prospects what it is that they want them to do next.

What's the call to action? Is it to sign up for a masterclass or to book a discovery call, or what do you want your prospect to do? We can't assume that people understand what the next step is. So just always making that clear, and something that any business owner can do today is to go and look at their website and just see, do I have clear calls to action on each of the pages?

Am I mapping out the journey of where I want people to go next? and putting ourselves into their shoes of our prospects and actually seeing is it clear to us? So, there's some of the key things that I see a lot of.

Kristy: I think the big takeaway is actually your final statement is put yourself in the shoes of your prospects. And I think that if you do that, then you're gonna be in good stead really. I absolutely love the process that you've just stepped us through.

So that customer-centric copy is so essential. But again, I, really do think this comes back to the business strategy and when you design your offers with your client in mind, then it's so much easier to create copy for your clients. Whereas when you are creating your offers based on you, your skills and all of those things, and absolutely that comes into it.

But when you are first thinking about the problem, which is what you mentioned before of the ideal client, what's their preferred, transformation and whatnot, then the copy [00:10:00] flows so much easier than as an afterthought of positioning yourself for the client. Does that make sense?

Emma: It makes so much sense, and I tell my clients as well, what you're actually doing is- When you're creating an offer that genuinely serves your clients, then the copy is just like providing a service. You know, you are showing your value by actually explaining to people why this service that you're offering is so perfect for where they are right now, and that's where also features and benefit. Really comes into it as well. So not just telling people what the features are of a particular service, but also really teasing out like what are the benefits of that?

And I love asking the question like, so what? Or thinking as the customer or client, what's in it for me? Okay. Explain it. Explain it and help to make it relevant.

Kristy: Yeah, I love that so much. And then I think the, the next thing that you mentioned is so important and for anyone who does DIY their own captions for Instagram or LinkedIn, or even on the website as you say, is to organize your copy. And I've never actually heard that phrased out in that way, but having that white space, and really giving people the ability to pick out the bits that are relevant to them and be able to explore that further.

Whereas I know myself, if I'm looking online and I see a big chunk of copy, I just don't have the energy to figure out what applies to me and what's the takeaway from this caption, and I'll just scroll by.

Emma: We've gotta be really careful and conscious of like, what platform are we on? What are people doing there? How are people actually consuming this content? You know and especially on social platforms. People are scrolling on past, like a big caption is going to just get lost there most of the time.

So just thinking about what actually makes. For this platform too. And emails short, you know, you can go to town with a bit more length in those. But again, comes back to that structure and that organization. So, helping people signpost their way through any kind of copy.

Kristy: Yeah, I think the thing is, is that in 2023 our attention spans [00:12:00] are shorter than ever before, and we're getting so much more savvy with figuring out what applies to me and what doesn't. There's so much content out there that you don't wanna get bogged down in something that's not relevant. And it might not seem like a lot, but if your ideal client has to figure out what it is that you are saying, then already they're burning too many calories.

Emma: Oh, absolutely, and I love the fact that your episodes of the podcast, they're so short and digestible that people can just dip in and dip out and get what they need and, get on with their busy day because that's what we are. We're busy, we're distracted. We've got so much going on.

Kristy: Yeah, and it's super competitive. Like at the end of the day, we're in competitive spaces. Instagram, LinkedIn, wherever you are, you are competing with a lot of content, not just other business-related content, but personal content. Anything with puppies, gosh, that's gonna take me away from anything, any day.

But we are, we're competing with a lot, right? And so, we have to intercept that. And so, I love the fact that you've been able to find a really tactical way to separate your copy from the next post by having that organizational white space.

And then the call to actions, I think that some people get tripped up on that. Can you give us a little indication about what might be great call to actions when it comes to social media or on your website?

Emma: Yeah, that's a great question, and I think there's a bit of a misconception sometimes that a call to action always means like, buy now, and it doesn't, you know, there are different types of calls to action, and essentially what that means is, getting people to take an action. And so, whilst buying something can be one way, booking a call or starting a conversation can be another way.

Or even just by asking a question at the end of your social post, you are encouraging people to actually respond and engage with you. And that is in and of itself a call to action. don't always just think, oh, I have to sell something, or I have to mention a service right now. By actually, posing a question at the end, maybe that, actually engaging with your community is the call to action for that post, and that's enough for that day.

Kristy: Yeah, I love that, and that takes the [00:14:00] pressure off anyone who feels like all they do is come to socials to sell. Because that's something that I hear a lot is that I feel like all I'm doing is selling. Well then, it's really simple, don't sell. You can always create other posts, and I love the fact that you mentioned, leave a comment and be able to create that community and that space for connection, and that's an opportunity for you as a business owner to learn from who your audience is. If you are posing a question and they're engaging with that, then that's an opportunity to hear their language, to understand their insights, to even engage whether or not your content is resonating with them as well.

Emma: Oh, absolutely. And on that as well, I think it's really important for business owners just to actually take a moment and sense, check what it is that they're posting. Like if it doesn't feel good to you for whatever reason, then maybe it's not the right content or it's not the right day, or it's not the right time, and just actually.

Trust yourself on that just because it's in your content plan or just because you had it written and scheduled for a particular time and day, it doesn't mean that's what you have to follow through with. I think, sometimes you've posted something, and you haven't felt a hundred percent right about it and it's just tanked.

And then other times you've thought, I really am passionate about writing about this today, and like it just really engages people because I think that that comes through.

Kristy: Oh, I totally agree, and I was actually nodding along in that. For me, content creation is so intuitive and I can feel when it's gone off course. I can feel when things don't feel right, which is half the battle when I actually have now got a social media manager helping me with the content and we go through, and we create the content.

She draws a lot of it from this resource, obviously the podcast, to get my tone of voice. But then there'll be times where I feel like, oh, that doesn't work and I needed to create, space for me to be intuitive with my posting and be able to go on this day, I feel like: This is the right message! This is what I know my audience needs to hear, and also this is the thing that feels right for me to put out into the world.

And so, by pulling back the content plan or the pre-planned [00:16:00] post allowed more space for me to be intuitive and for me to dip in and go this is where the vibe is. And I think that to your point, just because you've got it in your plan, and even if it's scheduled. Always pull it and then put something in its place or not put anything in its place, because sometimes nothing is also just as good, right?

Emma: Absolutely, and I love that learning! I think that just felt like something that was so right for you to do. And it's just again, that actually taking time to reflect on like what's not working about this and how can we adjust this process so that it feels better and that it resonates better, and you feel good about it.

Kristy: Yeah, absolutely, and we are all spending so much time online. You wanna, feel really good about the content that you are putting out as well as the content that you're reading. This leads really nicely into our next topic, which is one of the most common complaints that I see from business owners who are in this growth stage of business, the messy middle stage of business, is that sense of overwhelm, not just with copy, but honestly with so much of their business. But since we're specifically talking about copy today, what tools or advice would you have for anyone in this stage of business to simplify and make producing copy?

Emma: Oh, I've got a whole series of tools and tips and things like that, so I'll share a few with your bosses today. Essentially, I think the first thing that people can do is just to start to make it a little bit of a habit, however small that is, and whether that's, spending just two or three minutes a day just writing something.

It doesn't even have to be anything that you'll use for your business. It might just be jotting down something at your desk or even planning by hand or something like that just to get into the practice and the habit of writing, because I think for so many people, you know, they can go like, days or weeks in this feeling of like analysis by paralysis and overwhelm.

And so, I just want it to start to feel like something that is doable and achievable, even on a small sort of level, but developing that consistency or even to turn it into some sort of like little ritual. So I've got some clients. , they know it's time to write when they pull out their particular little notebook that they use, or they [00:18:00] might light a candle and spend five or 10 minutes just writing, and that's like their little writing zone.

And so, it just starts to form, this little bit of a habit. I'm all about creating things that are sustainable. So, I would never say to anyone, you know, start setting aside blocks of three hours a week to create content or whatever. For most people, that's totally unrealistic. And even for myself, you know, I work as a copy coach, I very much go with my energy.

So, some weeks that'll be like exactly right for me. And other weeks that'll feel like, oh, I just can't. So, I think those small, little sustainable habits, but I think it's also about developing some structures and systems that actually suit you. So, you might decide, okay, I wanna post regularly on LinkedIn, for example, but what regularly looks like to you versus the next person for you, it might be once a week for the next person, it might be four times a week.

Don't use their schedule as your schedule. You just make a commitment that feels like something that you can achieve. And then if you actually start to achieve that once a week, you're gonna feel really good about it and maybe even motivated to create a second post. But if you start saying, I'm gonna do four posts a week, and then you do one or none, you're just gonna feel crappy and you're probably just sort of, lose the momentum and lose the excitement and the energy for it. So, I just think starting with those small sustainable steps.

In terms of emailing, if you wanna email your, newsletter weekly, fortnightly, monthly, it doesn't matter what it is, but just start to make it happen and just start with something small. So just building those blocks out. I love organizing my content, so I'm big on things like Google Drive and having all my folders that are really organized.

I love to content repurpose as well, so if ever I'm gonna write something, I always want to use it in different places. I mean, for me, I have my podcast as well, so that's my kind of content foundations if you like. And I'll then take from there and it sort of becomes my email to my subscribers, it becomes some LinkedIn post, some Instagram content and so on. But whatever someone's base is, whether it starts with a [00:20:00] blog article or whether it starts with, an email newsletter, we can all take what we've done and rework it and reuse it in other places. So, I think you never wanna create something and just use it once as well. That's just really inefficient.

Not to mention the fact that, you know, if you're using stuff. Social media platforms, the algorithm, decides who sees what when, so it just makes sense to use things more than once. Organizing your content in a way that feels right for you, be that Google Docs or Trello boards or whatever, but starting small and sustainable and building those habits gradually.

Kristy: Oh wow. If we are gonna take away anything from today's conversation, it's all of the above. So, if you're listening to this podcast today, you're gonna wanna replay that. But there's so much gold in there, Emma. I love the fact that you are talking about sustainability because at this stage of business there is so much that's on your plate.

And this just feels like another thing, but it doesn't need to be another thing. And I love the way that you are talking about taking that one piece of content and repurposing it in different places to get more bang for buck and. Return on investment for time. Right. And I think that to your point, I'm very, very similar to you.

I've got the podcast; the podcast becomes my email newsletter. It also becomes my Instagram post, my LinkedIn post, and that's one piece of content that I can put out to different places and then it gets repurposed in a few months’ time in a carousel or something else. So, there's a lot of longevity from this investment of time that I have with you. But for this episode today, for instance, It doesn't need to be a podcast. So if you are listening today and thinking, yeah, that's great for you and Emma, Kristy, but what about me, I don't have a podcast. To your point, it could be a blog post or it could be one social caption. So if you've got a really amazing one, amazing social caption that goes to LinkedIn, Facebook, Instagram, it gets put into, A reel or a TikTok or into your newsletter, that's the same thing, right?

It doesn't have to be a long form piece of content like a podcast or even a blog, for [00:22:00] instance. So I love the fact that that is going to give you more further reach. To your point about the algorithm is the algorithm decides who it gets dished out to. So if you are putting it in different places, it doesn't cost you a whole lot of extra time, just a little bit of extra time to adapt for that platform.

So I would never recommend, well I'm not a copywriter, but I would never say copy and paste all the things in all the places and expect that you're gonna get a great result, cause. Please don't do that. And I've seen it done so many times, but you don't have to change it massively.

You've just gotta adapt it a little bit because for me. I have people that I'm connected with on my newsletter, on my Instagram, on my LinkedIn, and then are listening to the podcast. I'm sure they're gonna get really sick of me by the end of Tuesday afternoon if that was the case.

So I love the fact that you are not advocating for more content and coming back to what does consistency look like for you. For me and my audience they're expecting to see me on a Tuesday, they're expecting to have me in their ears. If they're on my mailing list, they know they're gonna get an email from me about five o'clock in the morning with like an indication of what they're gonna hear that day.

There's gonna be a video snippet on Instagram, and sometimes I put it on LinkedIn. I'm not as consistent over there, but the fact that they know that no matter what happens in that week, that one day a week, they're gonna be hearing from me and they're gonna have some really impactful content coming their way from me. I think is what builds trust.

So whether or not I post four times a week that week, or whether I post only ones, they're still getting something really juicy and of value. And so for our boss who's listening today, just remember that one piece of content done well, is gonna be so much more impactful than five pieces of content that hit the surface and that don't create impact.

Emma: Could not agree more, and I think too, there's such a payoff in that consistency isn't there? In the way that it actually encourages people to respond to it as well. So what will start to happen if you can be consistent, even if it [00:24:00] is that once a week sort of scenario, people will start to notice and they will start to respond. You'll start to feel accountable and it will actually start to feel like something so don't underestimate what that could actually do for you in terms of motivating you to continue to share that value and you know what it is that you bring.

Kristy: A hundred percent, and we talk a lot about no, like trust, right? When it comes to marketing and copy and all the things, and the trust piece comes twofold. It comes from a you being able to produce content that actually leads to trusting you to be able to invest in your services for them to get the transformational outcome. But the second way that you can build trust is through that consistency. Nobody expects you as a business owner to be in their newsfeed every day of the week. But if you're there that One day, Wednesday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday, whatever it is, that once a week - you are building equity in your trust for that person to know, Hey, they're there.

They're still showing their face. They're still showing that thing, they're still giving me value. That's pretty awesome. That's above average! I think so too. And to be honest, like I feel like I get more from the people who maybe show up once or twice a week with something really quality than people I feel like I see all the time. And I'm not necessarily sure that the content is landing in always the same way.

So I think there's something to be said for spending that time to curate something that's super valuable. In a way that feels like, yeah, it's not having to cut through all the time, but maybe just that once or twice a week, that's my take on it

Kristy: Yeah. I agree. The other thing that I wanted to reiterate on what you said is about creating that consistency around writing every day and not needing it to be war and peace. Like I've written stuff and, I'm the worst for spelling mistakes, right? You go through my Instagram post.

Nine times outta 10, there is a spelling mistake in there because I am not great on that detail, but I will make sure that the content, the piece of content is perfect and that it's landing. But I think creating that space to enjoy writing and not let, if you are like me and you make [00:26:00] mistakes in your, actual spelling, not letting that derail you and being okay with just.

Creating that space to write may never cut the grade or may not be perfect, but you are never gonna get better. You are never gonna find time for it. and it's never gonna get easier if you're not investing in it. So that, I love that advice around creating consistency, setting aside time, five, 10 minutes a day.

And that's just going to save you a whole lot of time. And one of the things that I was thinking as you were saying that, Emma, it reminds me so much of my daughter, she's learning to play the flute and her flute teacher who is very successful in her own right. She said to Willow, she said, Do not do this once a week because you will never get better at it, but if you play, 10 minutes a day and all you need is 10 minutes a day to practice, that's gonna be better than trying to practice in one three hour session once a week.

And so I think that with that in mind, what you said is that's where the power is gonna come from. Just that every day of a little bit of writing that's gonna improve your skills, that's gonna improve your confidence, and obviously the results will come from that as well.

Emma: Yes. Yes. I love that. And you know not to judge it if at all possible. I have been, doing this for a long time and my first drafts of anything, like, they're really crappy. Everyone's first draft is crappy. so just to let things come out, you know, just to let it be rough, let it be messy and it's fine.

Like we are so harsh on ourselves. So many of my clients come to me and they say, oh, you know, such and such my english teacher at school once told me, you know, this and that, and I think, oh my gosh. People are carrying around these stories about I'm not a good writer and whatever. Like, we need to let that go.

Kristy: I think it's so true. I remember a friend of mine who is a copywriter, and she said to me, she goes, you write so well, Kristy. And I was like, what? And she's like, You do, you write so well.

But it's so funny because your own take is that you are just still believing these things that you've been told as a [00:28:00] child. And the reality is, is that, I'm in my forties now, so much life experience has happened since school. I think that we've just gotta let go of the things that we believe to be true about ourselves and actually work on who we are as a person in copywriting or, whatever, really in life.

But that's, again, wrapping back around to that consistency. If you're spending time to write, you're never gonna master anything. You're never gonna get better at anything. Nothing's ever gonna get better unless you put some time on the ground on it. And that's where this, this can actually be something that's sustainable for you and, not be something that creates stress or overwhelm if you apply the things that we've spoken about today.

Oh, so much goodness. So I'd love to wrap this conversation up with someone who, like yourself, has been in business for six years. What would you say has been your biggest lesson in growing a successful business?

Emma: Mm. I was reflecting on this because there's so many things that I could say, but I think the one that probably really fits for your listeners is the idea of just taking imperfect action.

I think that's the one thing that has helped me to evolve my business, you know, from a straight copywriting business a couple of years ago, into this copy coaching model that I have today. Not waiting until every single duck was in a row, but just going when there was enough ready, and just doing the thing and learning as you go.

I think we can just hold ourselves back and hold ourselves up and get in our own way. So sometimes it's just that, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1. Right. Let's just do something and take it from there.

Kristy: Yeah. Love a good Mel Robbins. I think it's so true. It really sums up everything that we've spoken about today is just. Putting it out there, giving it a go and being okay with not being great out of the gate, is that nobody started with, pure excellence or mastery. And to your point, you've evolved your business so much over this time, and that wouldn't have happened without just.

Taking imperfect action. So I absolutely love and appreciate that. [00:30:00] So as we wrap up today, Emma, I'd love for you to share with our listeners where can we get in touch with you? How can we get all of your goodness in our ears and in our eyes?

Emma: Thanks Kristy. Yes, I'd love you to come and connect.

My website is www.emmamcmillancopy.com.

I'm on Instagram at emmamcmillancopy

LinkedIn at Emma McMillan Copywriter.

And I do, one-on-one copy coaching. I have a group program, the co-writing content crew, and I do bitesize LinkedIn profile coaching as well at the moment. And there's a bunch of free resources on there that people can access as well. So yeah, come say hi.

Kristy: Amazing. So if you are looking to make your copy more sustainable, please do go and check out Emma. Emma, thank you so much for joining us today. I really appreciate all of your wisdom and the value that you have shared with us in today's conversation.

Emma: Oh, I love this chat. Thanks Kristy. And I'm all about any kind of making business more sustainable. So I think we're on the same page.

Kristy: Absolutely.And to you boss, thank you so much for joining us for today's conversation. I have no doubts that you have a lot of ideas and concepts coming out of listening to this episode.

What I encourage you to do is to take a minute and think about what is it that you are going to apply, because as always, listening to these episodes will take you nowhere unless you actually put it into action. If you loved this episode, Please feel free to jump into stories and tag both Emma and I. We would love to hear your takeaways and if you know someone who could really benefit from hearing this conversation, please feel free to forward it out to them.

Again, boss, thank you so much for listening to today's conversation. I appreciate you and I look forward to chatting with you next week. [00:32:00]