Kristy: [00:00:00] Hello boss and welcome back to the podcast. Today I am joined by a very special guest who really needs no introduction, although is absolutely worthy of one. Cherie Clonan. Cherie is an incredibly proud autistic woman and the founding director and CEO of The Digital Picnic. The Digital Picnic is a company where she and her team teach digital marketing as well as managing a full suite of digital marketing portfolios for clients.

Cherie is an award-winning digital marketer who believes her biggest success measures revolves around disrupting the way we do and run businesses. She has a powerful message for the world, educating and informing and leading with positive messages for advocacy for neuro divergent people. And she does this through professional speaking and by walking the walk[00:01:00] in designing a humanistic and encouraging workplace with servant leadership at its heart. Cherie is known for her powerful social media storytelling and messaging that cuts through the noise of the internet. She speaks to real issues and topics she believes in. In this two part episode, that's right, I've had to split our conversation into two episodes as Cherie was so darn generous with everything that she shared. We cover everything from building a strong online brand through to making your business safe for neurodivergent folks.

And may I say it was so a joy to meet with and speak with Cherie. We chatted extensively throughout these interviews and offline too, and I can hand on heart say that as a longtime consumer of Cherie's content, that she is just as genuine, kind, intelligent and beautiful in real life.

These conversations are an absolute highlight for me, and [00:02:00] I know that you're gonna walk away with so much from tuning in. So without further ado, are you ready? Let's go.

Cherie, thank you so much for joining us here on the podcast today. I am beyond excited to have you here. I know that many of the listeners of the Run Your Business Like a Boss Podcast, follow you and everything that you do over on The Digital Picnic, it is such an honour to have you here with us today.

Cherie: Oh, [00:03:00] thank you. I can never believe that, I just play a humble game, but it's just so nice to hear that and I'm so happy to be here today with you.

Kristy: Cherie, I think it's undeniable that you have a formidable brand. So congratulations on everything that you, as well as the team, have achieved. Yeah, as I was like recording the introduction for today's conversation, I was thinking you really need no introduction, but of course we do introduce people. We do of course introduce our guests here on the show.

And it's for that you really do have one of the most recognisable brand voices around. For our boss who's listening to this episode, what are the key steps, in your opinion to create such a strong brand presence on socials?

Cherie: I think about this a lot. You know, and there are some things that I would say where your bosses who might be listening might think, oh, like that's not a formula. That's not, you know, that's not the 1, 2, 3 sort of step. There's one part of what we have going on, which I just honestly attribute to how I'm wired.

I'm a really proud autistic woman and I [00:04:00] sit within a sub community of the autistic community, which I've only recently learned is PDA. And we have a special interest in people. Um, so I'm wired to just soak can everything to do with people. And that has definitely contributed to, you know, how I show up online.

How I show up in real life is pretty much exactly how I show up online also. And I just think this year, but beyond, and I'm gonna say this dates back, you know, a few years, authenticity has truly reigned sort of supreme. And luckily for me, I'm a pretty, you know, radically authentic soul. So I just keep seeming to be warmly met online with how I show up.

Waiting for the one day cancellation. Who knows what it might be. I dunno, it could be anything. Um, but for now, it seems to be working. But to the bosses who are listening, I would honestly just say, if some of what I've just discussed there doesn't come as naturally, my best advice is to just really, uh, go pen to [00:05:00] paper, like a walk in nature or just anything a a drive in the car with music, whatever you need to do to get really clear on what is your purpose.

And I don't even know that you'd need the walk in nature or the drive in the car with music, because if you're struggling to answer that question, I say to anyone, your purpose is the thing that you just cannot stop talking about no matter how hard you try. It just keeps finding its way into conversation over dinner with friends or with your partner, with, uh, anyone who will basically listen.

And luckily for me, um, my autistic special interest is digital marketing. And you know, my purpose is organizational leadership, humanistic and encouraging workplace design, servant leadership and just so many subbranches of things that tie into digital marketing so well, and just get lapped up by our community.

And it's my purpose, so I can't stop talking about it. So, I don't know, like people just keep enjoying what we're putting down and I feel like a really lucky woman. So, yeah, to your [00:06:00] bosses listening, get clear on that purpose. If you can't stop talking about it, you're gonna be fascinating to people online.

Kristy: Yeah, I love that. I think there's been a lot of talk in recent years about purpose, and for some people they do struggle to connect to their purpose. It can feel really daunting and really overwhelming, and that it needs to be war and peace and, you know, I think that there's many different ways that we can uncover purpose, but I love the way that you articulate Cherie, the, if you can't stop talking about it, and it really lights you up, that is something to lean into, and it doesn't need to be something that's all and mighty. It can actually just be something that really you just feel so passionate about and so connected to. And I love that for you, it's something that's true and authentic and something that you truly believe in.

And everything that you spoke about is essentially about humanisation and whether it's how you lead your team, the content that you put out, the way that [00:07:00] we market to other people, like all of the things, right? The one common factor is humans and, and the fact that you are so passionate about how we work and how we think and telling stories around that. People can't help but be seen by that type of content.

Cherie: Yeah, I couldn't agree more. And I think, you touched on for some who are struggling to find their purpose, I will say, you know, there were times in TDP's lifetime, where that purpose wasn't clear for me. And that was pretty much the first four years. And I attribute that to, I think to the people listening, have a look around and see what's not going right in other elements.

Because for me, the first four years, I was in a really unhealthy business partnership and it was clouding my purpose. I was just so unclear because I was not safe to be myself, you know? And I can honestly, it was like a click the finger, change the minute I left that business partnership and just got to be me.

It was as if I drove through Las Vegas, like it was bright lights. It was just so, so clear. It was almost overwhelming. I was like, I'm home. Hello. [00:08:00] It's so good to be here. And I know now from our community, they could feel it. They didn't know what was going on, but they could just feel the change.

So if you are lacking clarity on what your purpose is, maybe have a look at your life and just see is there something sort of getting in the way. I mean, I don't wanna go too Woo, but you know, it, it's really amazing what, those kind of things can do to someone's purpose, absolutely.

Kristy: I think the thing that I take away from that, Cherie, firstly, is that word safety. When we don't feel safe, it's so hard to think bigger than ourselves in our current situation. So, I think that that's something that we can all connect to. And, you know, Brene Brown talks a lot about shame and guilt and things like that, and those are feelings that are associated with not feeling safe.

And so when you do feel safe, then you are able to see things clearer. That's definitely the first thing that I notice about that. The second thing is, is what you said about pinpointing what's not working. So you know, if you are struggling to connect to that purpose, look at what's not working and maybe if you can get that outta the way, then you know, your [00:09:00] example's a perfect example of yeah, then it becomes clearer.

Cherie: Yeah, absolutely. I'd wish it on everyone. Hope it happens to everyone in their, this one beautiful life that we get to live.

Kristy: I love that. So one of the, and you did touch a little bit on this in, in that previous question, is one of the things that business owners have to tackle with is authenticity, showing up as themselves. This is obviously something that you hold near and dear and do very well, Cherie, undeniably. How is it that you decide what is it that you are willing to share and what is it that what you're not willing to share? And do you have any words of wisdom for our listener today?

Cherie: Yeah, it's such a great question because I think as your business grows, and for me, I've found like as my team expands as well, I will say honestly now there is a lot more that I don't get to share out of complete respect for my team. Like just because I'm a radically transparent sort of soul, it doesn't mean that I get to speak on behalf of team or you know, and so on.

And I also have to really watch what I [00:10:00] share online and make sure its impact isn't negative on my team. So I walk this fine line between wanting so desperately to. Offer I guess, you know, solidarity to all of the business owners that follow us and can really relate to what I can share, and also wanting to make sure that my team aren't ever thinking, to quote what is it? Euphoria, like, is this play about us? You know? It's such a fine line, you know? Um, but for me, I sort of built with my confidence coach slash life coach, like a radical transparency roadmap and it sort of became a formula to make sure that I'm still being true to me and sharing as much as I'd like to, need to, feel safe to and so on, without dipping into, I don't use overshare anymore cause that's harmful to autistic folk that we don't overshare, we share to connect.

but I also wanna be respectful, you know, of my team, and so on. So, yeah, look, it's, uh, with regards to your [00:11:00] listeners, only you can build your own, you know, sort of roadmap with regards to what you are comfortable sharing versus what you're not. But like I said, when we were sort of just kicking off today's, you know, chat, I really think communities online are craving a lot more from brands, businesses and so on.

Um, but then personal brands that they follow online. So if you could just get that roadmap heading a little more, or even a lot more towards something more authentic and transparent. I can honestly say you'll enjoy what we enjoy, which is a community that just backs us. Like, I couldn't imagine a community backing, um, a brand online any less. Like they just love, they seem to love us and I love that. I wake up happy feeling that love so often.

Kristy: I love that. What's so nice, like I get the privilege of sitting here and seeing your face lighting up as you're talking. And so I want to illustrate that for our listener today because you really do embody and you can see your passion, not just hear your passion. So I, I just wanted to [00:12:00] firstly acknowledge that and I think you make such a, and again, this comes back to your true, authentic self and your belief system around the importance of humans and the humans in your team and not speaking on behalf of them. And you know, that's a new challenge that you have to navigate. But I really love also that you built that radical transparency roadmap.

And this is something that any of us can do because you don't have to share all the things, like you do get to choose. And if you hold things back from, you know, your community and sharing, it's not disingenuous or inauthentic. It's about what are the things that you are prepared to share, and what are the things that you wanna keep sacred or to yourself?

Cherie: I couldn't agree more. Like there's power in keeping stuff to yourself. There's so much now to begin with. My kids, um, are heading into the teen years and I've gotta respect their digital footprint. So they're basically offline now, unless it's an Instagram story that they consent to being shared. And, you know, there's just, yeah, there's power in [00:13:00] being respectful in that regard, but also, I will say this year has really put me through my pace, as you know, CEO of The Digital Picnic, and I've had particular challenges that I've never experienced before and oh, God wouldn't I love to talk about it all online and share it, but it would be harmful to me, you know? And I couldn't share yet, I reckon three-ish years from now, I will when it's in that safer place, which is called upon reflection. So that's something your listeners might wanna think about when they're mapping out those roadmaps.

Maybe there's stuff that sort of takes a different road where it's like, I can't share this now, but this will be invaluable three years, one year, two year, three years from now, something like that. Only you, again, will know when it's safe. Uh, so right now there are things I could share that would be unsafe to do so, but who knows? Three years from now I reckon they might make their way into my roadmap.

Kristy: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And I think, the way I perceive this is there's a lot of [00:14:00] intuition that comes into this when you're deciding what you will and won't share. And when you mentioned about your children like that is definitely something for me. I don't share photos of them on my Instagram.

The first time that I saw someone copying my account with photos of my children, instantly was like, that's it, scrubbed my Instagram of them. And yeah, I'm really big on guarding their security and their safety and their information because that's not up to me to share that to others, much like you for your team and, and things like that.

But upon reflection, I love that as a, I guess, a framework. It's somewhat a framework, but you know, that does mean that just because it's not right now, maybe there will be that time in the future that it feels good.

Cherie: Exactly. And there's power in that. You feel really powerful. And you can say, not now. Later. You know, it's just like, have you ever seen the movie Babe the Pig where the farmer says to the pig, that'll do pig. That'll do. You know, like, I'm always thinking about that where I'm like, that'll do for now pig. That'll do. You know? And I love that. I just always feel super powerful realising just because I can't share it [00:15:00] now doesn't mean it can't be shared later. And if it's not shared later, it's because I'm getting so good at this that I'm like, it's not even for later, Cherie.

Kristy: Yeah, I love that. I love that so much. So last year on the show I had a guest, Darby Linden, and we were talking about developing a personal brand. And I think that this is something that is emerging for a lot of online business owners. This is an industry that is, you know, somewhat exploding as I'm sure you are seeing with The Digital Picnic.

But Darby shared you as an example of someone who's doing a fantastic job of building a brand alongside of the business brand, obviously T D P. And it was interesting when she brought it up because I was like, yeah, totally. And then I knew that everybody who was listening to that episode would've been nodding along with, with you as that, as that example.

Must be very weird hearing this. Anyway, I'm just curious to know for anyone else who's looking to stand out as a personal brand who does also have a business brand, do you have any tips that you'd, you could share with them about how to do that? Cause clearly you do it so well.[00:16:00]

Cherie: I never think so, but thank you. I love to hear it, but I, I just think, oh, am I? So, it comes back to the purpose thing again. But I can branch more, you know, from here in that if, if you clear on purpose, purpose leads to you, again, probably sitting down with pen and paper and saying, if this is my purpose, what breakaway themes come from this that I can turn into content themes?

And I think a lot of people overthink this and think they need like 30, 40, and I'm just like, No, you don't actually, you know, so for example, well the perfect example is what I have going on from a personal branding perspective on LinkedIn at the moment. I'm really proud of because, you know, COVID happened, it was 2020 and honestly, business for me, I just thought, is this the end? I really did. I remember a couple of weeks or months even where I thought this could be the end, but it wasn't. Um, and so what I did with that, instead of getting defeated and pessimistic, um, which I think I had every right to be, and so does everyone else who's listening, if that was you, [00:17:00] sure I get it.

But I'm just a bit of a Labrador. I'm just wired for optimism. And I was like, all right, I've a lot of time at the moment, let's, um, finally get onto LinkedIn and do what I've been wanting to do for a long time. Um, and I created a personal brand there that started off so humble and it still, trust me, is really humble, but really got clear on my purpose. From that purpose I just got clear on the breakaway content themes. Um, from that, they're no more than four. It's three posts that I share per week at most, and it's gone from my first ever post on LinkedIn to now clocking about a million impressions per month, just as Cherie Clonan from the inner West of Melbourne, you know, so, I can't stress enough, like, don't overthink it and just stay true to the breakaway themes that perfectly feel attached to your purpose. And you can't go wrong and if you don't believe me, log online, follow the people that you love the very most, and you'll see they do not break away from purpose and three to four themes attached to that, you know?

So, um, you'll [00:18:00] start to really see it if you actually look for it, and it becomes so blatantly obvious that you'll wonder why you ever overthunk it, you know?

Kristy: I love that I'm all about simplicity, so if you can make anything easy and simple, then it's, it's something that you can absolutely action. So anyone who's wanting to build that personal brand, I think that exactly how you've laid that out is something that's so attainable and so simple. And, you know, here you are posting three times a week.

That might be one post a week to start with. If that three times a week feels really a lot, in addition to all the other things you have on your plate, but the fact that it's about one purpose, which, keep coming back to that, to those breakaway themes, and three, it's, it's just getting out there and doing that.

And I love the piece of advice around follow anyone who's doing this and you'll see it. It's like you've just lifted a cloak and it's so simple.

Cherie: is, it's a bit Wizard of Oz. Like you get there and you realise, oh, it's just a little old man and you know, the Emerald City, three to four content pillars. Is it really like this? But I look at [00:19:00] Brené, I look at, I look at all of them and I'm like, you've got no more than three to four things, but you're so passionate about your purpose.

That on, for example, one of my themes is, you know, neurodivergency advocacy, I could just dedicate my whole life the rest of, to that one theme alone. It doesn't get dull because I'm still so passionate about it. If it got dull, then I'd drop it, you know?

Kristy: I love that and to your point, it's not complicated. We all have things that we enjoy speaking about. I mean, you're so eloquent and you have a great way of being able to articulate yourself, obviously. But the fact that anyone could take this for a spin and see how they go with that and, and really just approaching those topics from different perspective of your own thoughts.

And that's really all, all it is, right? Thought leadership is your thoughts.

Cherie: That's it. We are all thought leaders. I know when I share this in strategy workshops, I look at people's faces and I'm like, I've lost them. I'm like, but I'm not lying. We are all thought leaders, you know, [00:20:00] it just, we have to figure out what we'd like to lead on with our thoughts.

Kristy: Yeah. You've mentioned a couple of times about putting pen to paper. Do you do this? Do you write it out before you type it out? I'm just curious.

Cherie: Yes, absolutely. If I was to shift my Mac right now a little to the left, you would see a wall of nothing but those big Office Works, I think it's a $70, $90 notepads. My husband's always like, why? And I'm. Dave for the rest of my life, you know, and they're filled with literal pen to paper, texter, whiteboard, marker to paper.

Um, I can never not, it just, look everyone's different. But I guess my brain, it just needs to see it visually first. And I work in digital, but I just can't start with digital for a lot of things. It's gotta be, you know, pen to paper. I've tried doing it differently and it just ends up rubbish, you know? So it's better to go pen to paper for me.

Kristy: Yeah, I'm definitely a pen to paper modality as well. Like, I like to, yeah, I think you're gonna get your, you're gonna get out of your head when you've got a pen in your, I've got a pen in my [00:21:00] head now, but you're gonna get out of your head when you, you know, when you're writing it down.

Cherie: I couldn't agree more.

Kristy: So let's change gears to community. You've obviously touched on this a couple of times, but TDP, as has an engaged community online. Your content gets exceptional reach. You mentioned before 1 million, this was just for yours, like plus you've obviously got TDP as well. So what would you say has attributed to the success, and is this something that brands can realistically achieve or is Cherie Clonan, TDP, are you both unicorns?

Cherie: No, I really am not a unicorn. I think there might be just the smallest unicorny element with what I sort of shared at the start. I just think that, for me, I promise I'll answer this question, but I just, well, let's go back to childhood, and I remember being eight and having no idea I was autistic.

I'd never even heard of the word, or met in my opinion, an autistic person without knowing I was actually being raised by an autistic, um, single parent dad. But I remember at eight, anything I looked at in [00:22:00] life, it was never not a full cinematic experience. Like if the most simple things were playing out in front of me in the playground at school, uh, it was a full, like I'm talking, I was producing it as if it was a movie.

I was writing copyright as if I was a screenwriter. I was, music was coming in like Hans Zimmer. That's what it's always been like to live in my head. So I'm very imaginative, you know, and it is why I'd get home from school and I was burnt out from just literally existing in that way. So, yes. Do I have a competitive advantage in that respect? I guess I do. Everything's quite illustrated. I don't see green. I see 200 shades of, but can anyone do this? Yes, absolutely. I think where people are becoming stuck is that, again, overthinking it. And so I say to them, well reverse engineer it.

Stop thinking that you have to know exactly what you're posting every single day with the exact piece of creative attached to it. Whether it's an image, video, you get the gist, you [00:23:00] know, stop thinking you need the whole caption and all of that one month in advance or even a quarter.

That's ridiculous. You know? What you need is just to reverse engineer it. And again, for me, pen to paper and say, what am I even going to talk about with these people? And I think where a lot of people go wrong is that they keep thinking, here's how I solve problems for people. We call it pain pointing in marketing or branding, you know?

And so here's the pain points for the people that follow me and this is how I can solve those problems. But I think what happens there is when you only do that, you're nothing more than a junk mail catalog, you know? And so what I instead prefer to focus on or blend as much as I possibly can into that situation is what I call pleasure points.

Um, which sounds sexual, a little bit 50 Shades of Gray. I promise it's really not. Um, and it just means, how am I getting these people, like how do I get them so high? How do I remind them why they followed us in the first place? How do I surprise and delight these [00:24:00] people, how do they log online and think, I had no idea that I even needed to see this until I logged online and saw this from The Digital Picnic. And when we incorporate as much of that as we can into our overall monthly content plan, it's how we've kept the community and grown the community that we have. And so, you know, with that, I sort of break it down to 30 odd content themes, which gives me about a month and a bit of content possibilities.

I leave myself room for spontaneity. I try to have some in the moment moments in an overall content marketing month, you know, just to be a little bit of fun rather than, um, all mapped out in advance. And I honestly can say that's how any mere mortal could possibly roll it out for themselves to just say, just name the theme.

Just call it video behind the scenes, founder content, small business honesty, whatever it is that you've called it, your audience won't know, oh, here they are with their small business honesty. They'll just know, wow, that post made my heart pound with the relatability or, [00:25:00] oh my Lord, that piece of educational content just changed the game for me. I've gotta keep following these humans. You know, you get the gist, like.

Kristy: Yeah. I love that. The pleasure points is a big one. For me, as a individual, I really, I get triggered a lot online and so when there's so much pain points, because I'm so compliant as a human, and so when I see and read lots of pain points, it actually brings me down. So I much prefer to read uplifting content that makes me feel good.

And again, that comes back to that space of safety. If you're constantly feeling like an unsafe place to be in terms of reading content. People aren't gonna connect to that because they feel like they constantly need to improve or that they're always doing something wrong, or that you are constantly gonna highlight their, you know, their shortcomings if you like.

And you know, we're pretty good at doing that ourselves. We don't need someone else online to tell us to do that. So I really love that you, you know, highlighted that pleasure points because I think it's really important and I think sometimes we,[00:26:00] you know, follow the advice of others and we think, oh, we just have to agitate that problem.

And sure there's a healthy amount of that because you need to obviously help people to become aware that, you know, this could be impacting their result and therefore you can help them with that. Sure, absolutely. We all get that. But if it's only about that, it doesn't feel like a nice place to be to consume your content. So I think that's a really valuable point.

Cherie: Yep. I couldn't agree more. And I think if you get a healthier mix of pleasure points into the mix, you'll make people feel like they're able to take in some of the more, the pain pointy things cuz they trust you and they feel safe around you and your content. And I just have to say also, to digress a little bit, when you explained that you feel triggered by, I've never heard someone say that so honestly, because I'm the same, but on TikTok, I actually find it can sometimes be pretty unsafe for me because my autistic brain believes whatever I see. So I only know to believe what I see and I can honestly easily get negatively influenced by TikTok content.

I will believe that stuff to be true when [00:27:00] it's just rubbish, you know? Or some of, you know, some of it is excellent content as well, but you know, there's just a lot that's genuinely untrue and I would believe it.

Kristy: Yeah, that's scary. And I think that really reinforces the responsibility we have as content creators, as business owners to show up in a way that you can't tick everybody's box. Like, let's be honest, but we can, I think even just putting it through your own filter, like if this feels not right for you and or not in alignment with your purpose or your values or how you, how you wanna consume content, I think that that tells us a lot. There's some messages in there.

Cherie: Yeah. The responsibility I, I feel, um, responsible for that. Like I, I just take so much pride in that responsibility that I feel to make sure that our content is safe and not triggering and, you know, yeah.

Kristy: Yeah. As a consumer of your content on LinkedIn, I can definitely say with absolute certainty that that comes across that things are thought through, that it's [00:28:00] considered, that you are taking great care for the person on the other side of the screen and yeah, like it's, it's, yeah, it's special.

Cherie: Thank you. Thank you so you So much.

Kristy: Wow, how much gold is sitting in this episode. This is the end of our part one of a two-part conversation with Cherie, and I hope this episode has given you some tools to action in your own business.

I love how Cherie just makes everything so simple. And so achievable. Too often we overcomplicate things to our own detriment. And boss, if you loved this episode, you can show your support by sharing this conversation out on your social platforms. Feel free to take a screenshot of where you listened to this episode along with your thoughts on what you heard and tag both Cherie and I. All of Cherie's and The Digital Picnic's details are tagged down in the show notes, so if you wanna connect, head down and grab the details there.

I cannot wait [00:29:00] to share with you the second part of this conversation, which is coming to you next week. It's here that we talk all about neurodiversity. Thank you so much for listening to today's conversation. As always, I look forward to chatting with you next week.